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    Why can't NZ get along?

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    Psalter
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    Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Psalter on Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:53 am

    So, a couple of friends of Erin's, Erin, one of my friends and I all went camping in the Ureweras this weekend. Had a fantastic time with great weather (though a bit cold), great company, and pretty decent food. The only down to it was the fucking natives.

    Now, I don't actually mean that... but that's how it begins to make you feel. You have this pristine bit of bush, surrounded in Kiwi, Tui, Kereru etc. and over in the corner there is a burnt out shell of a 2007 Hilux.

    Why is there a burnt out shell of a 2007 Hilux? Because some Maori think that they have the right to tell hunters how and when they can hunt deer in a fucking National park! And if you are a hunter, and you don't listen... well, your goods are forfeit.

    It just disgusts me. Add to this the eyeball fucking I got for having the gaul to be white (half pun) in a predominantly brown area and you just get the feeling that NZ is just fucked.

    BUT there were the elders (the ones that will be dead before long) that came and spoke to the hunters (and us) and expressed their disgust at what the younger generation are up to... and what they seem to expect as right. It made me feel a little bit better... and a little sadder to think what NZ will lose with the fading of that generation.
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    Anjewel
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Anjewel on Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:16 am

    It happens all the time Psalter...They are a law unto themselves up there, as they wear white mans clothes, and drive white mans cars etc etc...Some of them are my relations and they make me vomit with their shithouse attitudes...
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    relict
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  relict on Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:16 am

    Psalter wrote:the elders ... expressed their disgust at what the younger generation are up to... and what they seem to expect as right. It made me feel a little bit better... and a little sadder to think what NZ will lose with the fading of that generation.

    Yes, that makes me sad too, though one can hope that the younger generation will change their attitude as they (hopefully) mature, and realise what is important in life.

    It brings me much joy when I see young people embrace knowledge and skills that are getting more rare. Not just Maori taonga, but also crafts like cobblers, etc. I know a place where they are widening an ocean road to add a cycle and walking track, and for the sea wall they are using stone masons (correct term?). Some people are complaining at the cost and time it takes, but when I see those stones fitted together so skillfully, I smile.
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    superarmy
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  superarmy on Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:48 am

    What causes the generational disconnect, at the source of this problem, among others, though?

    In this digital age, many younger, especially lower socioeconomic class, people struggle to establish an independent and unique identity. This, in there case, results in a mixture of past values mixed with martial mentality. In a world where one fails to establish a sense of self, one tries to break the world in to their image. It's a sign of the times, maybe we should do what the Khmer Rouge did, kill those who represent everything wrong with the old establishment...
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    Diaz
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Diaz on Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:01 pm

    That's sad to hear, you can only hope that they mature and understand what the elders do - that you can't change the past, but you can change the future and only by accepting that they have to accept the world as it is and moving on can there be a better future for everyone. Instead they descend into radicalism, and in effect bite the hands that feed them by developing a 'them and us' mentality and become something that most people are repelled from. I doubt they will understand this though.

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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Kosmick on Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:01 pm

    The problem with these arse-wipes is that they have no respect, either for themselves or anyone else. They want to stick to the Treaty of Waitangi, fine, let them. But just remember that in the treaty it states that the White man must not sell alcohol or arms to the natives.
    Yes I have read the Treaty of Waitangi
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    woody67
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  woody67 on Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:37 am

    should there be some accountability from the older generations tho? and I mean from both sides here.
    Personally I feel that NZ has tried quite hard to rectify sins of the fathers in regard to returning land and compensation etc, so has this in effect created the generation today that WANT their own flag,drivers licenses and passports?
    Is it that thru this compensation etc we have (speaking as an older generation type)perhaps raised their self awareness and esteem to the point that they are pushing for more and more?
    It may be occurring in the wrong way per se but, is it all that dis similar to what was visited on generations of maaori back when we colonised it? are we, as the white man finally on the receiving end of a mentality we ourselves had a few hundred years ago?
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    relict
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  relict on Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:06 am

    woody67 wrote:are we, as the white man finally on the receiving end of a mentality we ourselves had a few hundred years ago?

    Good question.

    Kosmick
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Kosmick on Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:23 am

    If the maori had the greed to sell their land for a musket and a couple of blankets, why should the Pakeha compensate them millions of dollars by todays market prices. Surely all they should get is the price of a musket and another couple of blankets if anything?

    lois lane
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  lois lane on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:48 am

    Kosmick wrote:If the maori had the greed to sell their land for a musket and a couple of blankets, why should the Pakeha compensate them millions of dollars by todays market prices. Surely all they should get is the price of a musket and another couple of blankets if anything?

    I assume you're not serious here kosmcik, at least I hope you're just joking, but if you are serious - don't you think you're being a little simplistic there?

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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Kosmick on Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:55 pm

    lois lane wrote:
    Kosmick wrote:If the maori had the greed to sell their land for a musket and a couple of blankets, why should the Pakeha compensate them millions of dollars by todays market prices. Surely all they should get is the price of a musket and another couple of blankets if anything?

    I assume you're not serious here kosmcik, at least I hope you're just joking, but if you are serious - don't you think you're being a little simplistic there?


    Not at all simplistic
    The Maori have been fucking the Pakeha around for far too long now, time it all stopped.

    As for Maori seats in Super City Auckland, if they were allowed 3 seats, what about the Islander representation, not forgetting the Asians. By the time everyone had the seats alloted to them there would be none left over for anyone else, never mind Banksy who wants to be Mayor in a big way!
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    relict
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  relict on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:15 pm

    Kosmick wrote:... Banksy who wants to be Mayor in a big way!

    *Involuntary shudder*
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  relict on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:18 pm

    Kosmick wrote:As for Maori seats in Super City Auckland, if they were allowed 3 seats, what about the Islander representation, not forgetting the Asians. By the time everyone had the seats alloted to them there would be none left over for anyone else, never mind Banksy who wants to be Mayor in a big way!

    Choose the right people for Maori seats, and the voice of Islanders, Asians, etc will improve - I believe that.

    Also, not comparable, since this is the home land of Maori, but other ethnic groups have another homeland. I'm not saying they should go back, just that it is fair they have an expectation of Maori in leadership roles. Yes, I am aware Maori were not always here, but there is no other area where their culture is primary or valued.

    Kosmick
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Kosmick on Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:30 pm

    Also, not comparable, since this is the home land of Maori, but other ethnic groups have another homeland. I'm not saying they should go back, just that it is fair they have an expectation of Maori in leadership roles. Yes, I am aware Maori were not always here, but there is no other area where their culture is primary or valued.[/quote]

    The Moari took over this land from another tribe who were here first, then ate them!

    Show me a full blooded Maori now, are there any left in NZ or are they cross bred so much that they have no 'pure' Maori's left at all?
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    Tikva
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Tikva on Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:29 pm

    The following is taken from a 'Diary' of Letters that an Ancestor of mine wrote back to his family in England after emigrating to New Zealand. Please note that I do not write it to offend anyone, and whilst I could have just written the portion that makes the point, it would not be in context.

    The date that this Letter was written is June 18th 1884:

    Everybody are equal, all speak to everybody and shake hands with everybody. You never trip along the road but "good morning" of the settlers and "Tenarqua Pakelia" of the Maori greets you. False pride is utterly at a discount. Profane language is nearly unknown, the foul oaths of the home people would soon make them outsiders here. They are, in the country, industrious, godfearing and sober. In the town, often they are loafers, sceptics and drunkards. Drink here, as at home, is the curse of the country. Although licences are exorbitant, hotel keepers (they are all hotels here and very large) get rich and they may well. Nasty, abominable compounds are sold for ale and spirits and all at 6d per glass. It drives men mad. New Zealand has the unenviable reputation of having to care for more lunatics in proportion to the population than any other civilised country.

    Places of worship are plentiful and of many various creeds from Church of England to Plymouth Brethren and Spiritualists. All clergy are equal here, except the bishops take precedence in their own flock, as at home.

    A country farmer is often a M.H.R. (Member of the House of Representatives) and they are shrewd enough I can tell you. The people here are shrewder than the home people. They can detect a "new chum" in a moment and if they get the chance will learn him something. All are on the look out for one thing and one person. Money and the notorious No. 1.

    People here are on the whole better off than the home people. Wages are good, when they are in work, and food is cheap. I bought 16lbs of mutton last Saturday for 3/4d. All nearly are possessed of a horse. Children ride to school on them and carpenters and bricklayers ride to their work. I was speaking to a railway overseer and he said that there were often as many as ten horses at a time tethered along the line, belonging to the natives, and if he wanted to send of them somewhere, he looked out who the nearest horses belonged to. Horses can be kept for little and often nothing and can be bought for £4 to £30. Light weeds can be got at any price. Maories breed most of them. They will breed horses and pigs but cattle or sheep they will not. They grow potatoes and Indian corn. Indian corn is eaten after being steeped in water till soft and nearly decayed, when they consider it palatable. They also eat the bottom of rushes and wood maggots are a delectable treat eaten alive. They have a decidedly nutty flavour. I have reserved the pleasure of trying the dish as I wish to make a grand treat of it and expect to take half a days holiday for the purpose.

    They dislike work as a rule and are really children of the Sun. Some are very rich as they hold very much land and are living on the sales. They are sociable, friendly and good tempered and are as much a subject of the New Zealand Government as settlers are. They have to abide by the same laws and are alike protected. Maories have no cause to grumble if the English Government will make a shoemaker’s shop of the rear of Tawhiao and send him back there, they will be sensible. The men are fine men. The women, as a rule, have repulsive, hideous features. Grease and tobacco are the inseparable characteristics of the elderly women. A few of the young girls are as fine looking as any you have seen but they age prematurely and then live for ever, I think.

    The Maories, male and female, ride well and are possessed of the finest horses in the country. We have the settlement of Maliwa Junna here close to us. Some of them sleep and live in their wooden churches or meeting houses on weekdays and worship there on Sundays. Others build little rush houses. They live all together with their own people. They are very lax in morals. They are blessed with few children, so few that their race from this cause is gradually disappearing. In time no doubt the Maori will have merged with the settlers into one race, just as with the Saxons and Normans. They are honest as a rule and will beg anything in creation sooner than work for it. They are never hungry as they will eat anything and dare not come out at night for fear of Typo, as they style his sable majesty.

    Kosmick
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Kosmick on Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:45 pm

    Some are very rich as they hold very much land and are living on the sales.


    My point understood yet?

    They sold the land.......now they want it back.


    That letter is to the point and still mostly stands today
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    Tikva
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Tikva on Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:28 am

    Please note the use of the word 'some' in that sentence!

    Kosmick
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Kosmick on Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:15 am

    Tikva wrote:Please note the use of the word 'some' in that sentence!

    And 'some' of them are agitating to get land back that they 'SOLD'
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    woody67
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  woody67 on Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:32 am

    But it was sold at a ridiculous rate back then and the european forefathers KNEW the real value of the land at the time...they did this in many places to many native cultures without hesitation and knowing full well that they were ripping the natives off....so now that their culture has evolved and caught up with the white mans wiles we get upset and say they are asking too much....maybe they aren't asking for too much, I dont agree with how some are going about making their desires known(refer to original post re burnt out truck) but in the past similar types of senseless acts were visited on them as well.....so maybe it all comes down to Karma being a bitch.
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    Donkeycheese
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Donkeycheese on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 am

    Kosmick wrote:Also, not comparable, since this is the home land of Maori, but other ethnic groups have another homeland. I'm not saying they should go back, just that it is fair they have an expectation of Maori in leadership roles. Yes, I am aware Maori were not always here, but there is no other area where their culture is primary or valued.

    The Moari took over this land from another tribe who were here first, then ate them!

    Show me a full blooded Maori now, are there any left in NZ or are they cross bred so much that they have no 'pure' Maori's left at all?[/quote]

    Hmm
    First you quote an understanding of the Treaty, and don't distinguish between Maori land that was sold, and Maori land that was stolen

    Secondly, you quote a fairy tale devised to make the white man feel better about taking the land.

    I would prefer some actual facts in this converstion
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    Waireka
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Waireka on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:37 am

    Not all the land was sold either...

    Huge amounts of land was confiscated and/or obtained by bull shit government legislation.

    Some was confiscated as punishment for suspected involvement in any of the land wars (often from completely innocent bystanders), also obtained under the Public Works Act but never used for the reasons it was obtained for and in some cases sold off (the first hikoi was about this), land was TAKEN all over the place, some WAS sold, but I'm no land court expert so I will stop here.

    But Kosmick you obviously are ignorant to much of NZ's history.
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    Waireka
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Waireka on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:45 am

    Kosmick wrote:The problem with these arse-wipes is that they have no respect, either for themselves or anyone else. They want to stick to the Treaty of Waitangi, fine, let them. But just remember that in the treaty it states that the White man must not sell alcohol or arms to the natives.
    Yes I have read the Treaty of Waitangi

    Rolling Eyes

    Huh?

    http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-treaty/english-text

    Click that and find me the part about alcohol or arms?

    It's not part of the TOW, it's another law passed after the TOW signing, along with several other bullshit laws. It was scrapped a while after too I think? The purpose of that law was to stop the non-Maori people who were trying to get around the laws preventing them from purchasing Maori land from Maori. They would sell them booze and arms on credit with their land as collateral (sp?) and then forclose on the land.
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    master5o1
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  master5o1 on Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:51 am

    fail thread is fail

    Kosmick
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Kosmick on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:08 am

    The original is in London
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    Waireka
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    Re: Why can't NZ get along?

    Post  Waireka on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:16 am

    Kosmick wrote:The original is in London

    Rolling Eyes

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